I didn't plan on writing anything more about the interview in the air. I'd said to much already. I really thought I had nothing more to say. Until my sleepy eyes were met with a slew of posts filling my Facebook feed when I woke up to feed the baby at 5 am, accompanied by comments telling all the over sensitive moms out there why they are most certainly wrong to feel the way that they're feeling.
The basic gist of the comments that accompanied the latest article was "So all you American Moms who's feelings have been hurt by the Pope's words... maybe it's not about you! Maybe he wasn't talking to you at all!" The article itself wasn't bad. The comments though, made me want to crawl back into bed.
Honestly, do we really believe that telling people who have been hurt by these comments that what they really need to do is just get over themselves is an actual solution to the very real pain they're feeling? Come on ladies. You don't have real problems. You have first world problems. Step off the self centered pedestal and shove those feelings to the back of your mind because you have no right to be having them.
Since these discussions have begun I've had someone I've known for years point out that I don't have as many kids as she does and her feelings aren't hurt. I guess that should mean that I shouldn't feel saddened when I see a specific woman being held up as an example of irresponsibility, after years of being told over and over again "the Church doesn't give specific examples."
And I've had it pointed out that the point is obvious and obviously I'm missing it. In case anyone's wondering, having been on the receiving end of that sort of critique I can confirm that it probably isn't the best way to win over hearts and minds to your point.
In another conversation, that I managed to not dive in to, a few people took the opportunity to rant about the ridiculousness of these people who took on this mantle of "victimhood" by having the nerve to be upset. How are these women so over emotional that they couldn't go and read what was actually being said and understand the wonderfulness of those words? was the question asked.
I was tempted to answer, but didn't. I wanted to say: I read the words. I read the "reliable translations of the transcript." And it didn't take the sting away. Praying did.
But still I found myself wondering how many women out there were taking part in these same conversations and feeling the same way. And I guess that's why I'm writing.
I'm not an apologist. I used to think that I might be someday. I used to have a thirst for debating that has seen dwindled and disappeared almost entirely. I still love learning. I love my vocation. But I don't love arguing and debating points like I used to.
So if you've come here to debate, you win. I'm not here to debate whether his words were true. They were. Nothing new was said. They were true and they hurt a good many people who try to live by the Churches teachings. They were true and many people found them uplifting and inspiring. They were true and they'll be used as ammunition against us for years.
And I realized this morning that while I was saddened by the words in the initial interview, that sadness was easy enough to brush aside, given what we've learned in the past years about the way the current Pope uses words (with good humored, well meaning, reckless abandon, was the first description that comes to mind).
I find what has happened in the aftermath, far sadder than those initial words.
The truth, as a hammer, is seldom affective at speaking to hearts. Telling women, who found the interview to be hurtful, that they weren't smart enough to get the intended meaning and quoting Canon Law at them, or telling them that they don't have "real problems" so they should get over it because "it's not about you" isn't going to comfort or draw anyone closer to God. And honestly, I can't imagine the Pope using those same words.
For as sure as I am that he meant no harm with his words, I'm equally sure that he would comfort those who were hurt if they were to stand face to face with him, rather than brushing their pain aside and telling them that they have no right to feel it.
Believe it or not, those of us who were pained by what we read are likely really trying to understand the words. For many of us, we actually did understand them, quite clearly, on an intellectual level.
Yet somehow that didn't make it easier. I was reminded of many posts that I've read by friends struggling with the pain of infertility. It isn't, obviously, the exact same thing. And yet I do find myself wishing it was handled more delicately, as I hope most people would react to someone voicing that sort of pain. You wouldn't tell a woman suffering the pain of infertility that she has no right to feel pain at the praises sung in the Catholic world of large families (and I'm not saying that pain is in any way even comparable... so please don't think that I am!).
Extend, if you can, that same courtesy to those with large families who find themselves attacked on a regular basis for the size of their families, who try to ignore the words from family, friends, acquaintances and strangers, but who find themselves pained by them no less.
Perhaps try to understand that to a woman who has likely been told that she is wildly irresponsible to have more than a couple of children, by a society who believes that three children is "a lot" and maybe even "too many" may, even though she understands the Pope's use of the words "responsible parenthood" (which has long been a teaching of the Church), feel pained by them especially since there's a fair chance that she and her children have been compared to rabbits by people who were quite serious about the comparison.
And if, after thinking of all these things, you then decide that you need to go out and berate someone you know for having the gall to feel pain at those off the cuff remarks given on that flight, then the only thing left to do is pat yourself on the back for being so advanced in sanctity that you've made it passed all those piddling little emotions like empathy and compassion and you without a doubt will go far as you speed on your way reproving all those sinners who dared give voice to an emotion that you don't agree with.
I'm trying hard to understand why these words hurt people. I have five kids, but not because I'm Catholic. I just wanted five kids, and we are fortunate to be able to peovide for them and I was lucky enough to have five successful pregnancies. I do understand if you view family size as corrolary to holiness, or like to "show off" how open to life you are, these words could sting because they point out pride. But most people aren't that way. I guess I just don't get it. I mean - shouldn't it be a relief that responsible parenthood has been reinforced by the pontiff? Sometimes the truth hurts? Just not sure about this.
ReplyDeleteHi Annonymous. Thanks for giving me the chance to explain. I'm not sure if I can do a better job than I've done, but maybe someone else can... especially since your guesses as to why don't seem to be accurate for anyone that I've met. Did you read the earlier post? That explained it a bit more.
DeleteMaybe you're lucky and haven't had people make rude comments with every single pregnancy (since my second) about how they're "sorry" you're having more kids... because it's irresponsible to have more than two, it damages the environment, the world is over populated as it is, and on and on and on.
I've wanted all my kids. I haven't had them to show any one that I'm good. I've had them because love naturally gives life and we've been thrilled every time we've been entrusted with another soul to our care.
And I've heard people make rude comments for each of those lives that we were so thrilled about welcoming.
The comments that were made are very likely to be used against large families. We're already told, even after careful discerning, that we're "irresponsible." We're already compared to barnyard animals. Now people will quote the Pope when they say those words. They'll be wrong... but it will still simply be more ammunition.
The part that really made my heart ache was his public use of a description of a woman that he met. In the past the Church has very carefully never used examples. I cannot imagine how it would feel to have him publically use me as an example of irresponsibility, even if my name wasn't used. My heart would be broken. So my heart aches for that woman.
So no, it wasn't pride. I'm pretty sure having children has pretty much demolished anything remotely like pride remaining in my body. Maybe it was knowing that there are people out there who will use his words, incorrectly, like weapons.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteFor someone who doesn't understand what she is talking about, you are the perfect example of what is wrong. Try taking the "you" out of reading her blog and read it again. It should make more sense this time.
I only have four kids and we've been trying to adopt again for almost 10 years! (loss of jobs and other setback prolonging the time) And yet I see people with only 1 child (Catholics) who would like more and have not been blessed. I do think there is some (large family pride) out there but there is also (small family pride) out there. I was once told by someone that she and her husband had their two kids so they had "replaced themselves" and that was the only responsible way to reproduce. (they weren't religious at all though) So I think no matter what size your family; you'll find someone to criticize you. That said; although I'm sure the Holy Father didn't mean to insult large families; if it came across that way to so many (looking at all my friends feeds); then it did. He seems like a good man but the media is obsessed with only emphasizing his seemingly pro left comments (notice how his "Humanae Vitae was a righteous document) content didn't get much press. Or even anything on traditional families. So I do feel for all the wonderful large families who already face possibly daily criticism and perhaps there will be some kind of Papal response if there is enough reaction.
ReplyDeleteI think that you're right and that his comments weren't meant at all as insults. Unfortunately I'm afraid that's how they're going to be used. I'd be surprised if there was any sort of clarification just because there hasn't really been with any of the other comments that have been taken in the wildly wrong way.
DeleteIt is annoying.
DeleteAlthough not a Catholic, I understand, in part, why feelings have been hurt. It hurt because people are very hostile to "large" families in many cases and at the very least you get the disapproving looks. "Oh, you're having another baby? Well, that's how some people like to live their lives." People's feelings are hurt because there is no reason why when having just a third child any part of us should feel anxious about announcing it and what people (even family) may say.
ReplyDeleteAs a Protestant I get to hear the, "don't turn into The Duggars" comments all the time and being in the rural south, the looks that say, "oh, you are an ill responsible breeder."
We're about to welcome baby three any day now and I've got my OB asking if I want my tubes tied - at 25 yrs old so obviously she thinks I'm having too many - and random cleaning ladies at my husband's work telling him that I'll regret having so many children when I have arthritis later in life.
People's feelings are hurt because even as a non-Catholic I find love and support, a safe place, amongst the Church & my friends who are Catholic. Because when we feel like you need to explain yourself when out at the grocery store or that you are being luxurious for having more kids or needing a van to drive them around you want one place you feel like you can rest.
And so even as a non-Catholic I long for that safe place and it hurts knowing that ignorant people will use those words to take the joy out of welcoming a new life. Because, people are more than comfortable sharing their opinions about other people's sex life and reproductive choices for some reason.
For people to be commenting, "just get over it" is all well in good, but people don't just "get over it" and no where in the gospel do I see Jesus be littling people's emotions or feelings in such a way. We're suppose to have compassion for one another and our hurts.
I love this comment Lynn. I think you summed it up very beautifully.
DeleteAnd prayers for you in these last days of your pregnancy! I can't believe it's already time!
I'm so disgusted with the Holy Father, not because of the rabbit comment, but because he felt it necessary to publicly humiliate that mother of 8. How is calling an already pregnant woman irresponsible helpful? How is having 8 sections tempting God? Does the Pope know her medical history or is he assuming that every woman's uterus will spontaneously combust after 3 sections? God forbid this woman should go abort her baby or sterilise herself after being scolded by the Pope.
ReplyDeleteI'm really hoping that there's some circumstance I'm not thinking of... like that she told him he could share her story with the world... barring that I hope she never hears about the interview.
DeleteWould you give the Pope permission to use you as an example of being irresponsible? LOL Cammie I think you are hoping against hope.
DeleteBTW my name is Maria and this was my first time commenting. I couldnt figure out how to comment with my name
Hi Maria,
DeleteMaybe it's better that I hope that she not see the interview then! Because you're right, it is hard to imagine...
I am sorry this is eating at you and I wish I could tell off all the people who open their mouths when they should keep them shut. I have been stewing all week about something that happened at Mass Sunday, so I do understand the "ack, I just can't let this go" feeling. In my parish large families start at when the 6th or 7th child is born and you would have an average family compared to those with 9-12 kids which is comletely acceptable. When people have that next child everyone says, "Good for you!"I have 5 and 5 is average here for those couples where both parents are Catholic. Couples where one is another Christian faith tend to have 3 and if one parent is secular, then 2. I keep telling God it would be a good plan to give your husband a job in rural VA but He hasn't said yes. Our parish is supportive of large families, homeschooling and accommadating disabilities without being angrily traditional(the difference being whether you are traditional because it is really beautiful rather than because the rest of you are heretics and not really Catholic). So culture varies, is it an urban thing? A Florida or Midwest thing?
ReplyDeleteJust to add a humorous note, when my 2 oldest daughters were having children at the same time, a teen boy made a comment about how I needed to get this under control, I looked him in the eye and very seriously said, "My plan is world domination, I have 5 kids and my kids are having multiple kids and someday my DNA will take over the world while yours will die out." His eyes got big and he walked away. He never made another comment.
LOL, Becky! Your story literally had me laughing out loud.
DeleteAnd it's so strange because I don't think of our family as a large family, so it always kind of weird when we do get comments. And they started at two, when I was pregnant with Christian, and so we really weren't anywhere near large then!
I would so love if God sent us a job in rural Virginia! That's one thing that Paul and I differ on a bit I think! I'm way more in to the idea of living some where rural than he is (although I can't complain too much because he did do the whole rural thing for the first four years of our marriage).
Out of curiosity, which parish is this? We're looking to move to rural VA in a couple of years.
DeleteBy the way, I've heard numerous times that those of us who haven't been able to have kids absolutely have no right to complain. Being sad about it hurts those who are upset they have many kids.
ReplyDeleteThat's just... horrible. I'm really sorry people have said that Kimberly. I know I only spent a very brief while, relatively, after my miscarriage, unsure if we'd have more... and that hurt more than I could ever imagine. So I know I can't even begin to imagine it going on for years and years.
DeleteAnd I was thankful that you spoke up on that post the other day and said how you felt. I wasn't sure afterwards if my tone, which was so frustrated (not with you! With other comments on it) came out the wrong way in print because I was so upset with everyone else.
Anyways. I think you have the right to feel however you feel about it...and that anyone who tells you differently is missing a sensitivity chip.
It's interesting how we each see our own selves in what the Pope says. I loved what he said because I'm the oldest in a family of seven where my mom had more children than was prudent and it had many consequences for me and my siblings, and my mom ended up dying young while my youngest siblings were still young children. When I was a young child my mother spent the better part of many years hospitalized and temporarily blind after she had my second sister and suffered complications from that delivery (pseutotumor cerebri). She was advised not to have more, but she and my dad had five more children. My mom brought us up in a good in many ways Catholic environment, but she was involved with groups of moms who would quite literally never say no to having another child. Two in her Catholic circle had husbands that left because they refused to even consider that at 8 children they were maxed out and they simply couldn't work any harder or make more money to support them. I think his words were needed and appropriate for a certain audience. I wonder if my mom had felt agree had permission to care for herself and the children she already had, instead of feeling that not having more wasnt what God Catholics do, what may have happened differenty in her life. It's true, we are not supposed be like rabbits that reproduce soley to make more rabbits. That is counter to human dignity. If we believe in the inherent dignity of every person then it stands to reason that being reckless with ones own fertility, isn't prudent.We need to rationally discern bringing children into the world. It probably wasn't a great idea for him to talk as specifically as he did about the woman he met, but I think we ought to be quick to forgive that error. He's only human, and the rest of his message was important. Hopefully this doesn't offend but I don't ever see a lot of voices from siblings in large Catholic families giving their perspectives.
ReplyDeleteThanks for offering your perspective Shannon.
DeleteGoing off on a tangent in a way, after reading your comment one of the things that came to mind was that I wonder if the people who most need to read it, the ones who don't know, are probably those who don't have access to the technology to hear the interview, or the entire kerfluffle that followed.
Love this, Cam. Take the angry people in stride. It's not about pride, it's about love. And unfortunately, too many people are going for a win here instead of a deeper understanding.
ReplyDeleteThank you Melody. And I loved your post on Facebook this morning. When I was getting really, really down about everything that I was seeing your words brightened my day.
DeleteIt just seems like many who like what he said feel the need to be right despite how "mean" they have to be to in order to claim victorious. People who are offended by what he said aren't stupid, overly emotional, or pope haters. We are people who feel differently and don't need to be told that we're just too stupid to understand what he meant.
ReplyDeleteI've noticed the same thing.
DeleteShannon, same thing. My mom should have stopped at four. Number five was the one that "broke the camel's back" for our family. But, my mom thought "good" Catholic women had large families. I appreciate the Pope's candor and honesty. I can also see how it would put some on the defensive or hurt feelings, though. I am sorry that happened. Having said that, I do appreciate the Pope's support for my own choice to have a moderately sized family. I think some women and men are able to handle and afford huge families without going crazy and shortchanging everyone. I'm not one of those parents. Funny thing is there was a time I wanted 8!
ReplyDeleteI've been thinking about this comment by the Pope since it came out, and I have been thinking that what's been going on with him since he's been made Pope is a lot like the priest abuse scandal. What I mean is attacks on the Church (but now, not the organization and clergy but the faithful) are increasing by the media who twist the Pope's casual words to make it seem that he is calling for a softening of doctrine in many areas. I can't help but think that the Evil One is just dancing and laughing at how time and again faithful members of the Church can be devastated as they live their faith because words by the Pope are twisted and being used against them. It really is an increase in persecution on many fronts. I don't think he's to blame except for his sometimes thoughtless use of words which can be twisted. John Paul II and Benedict XVI seemed much more hip to the way the media could twist things and so were much more precise and careful about what they said. This Pope seems not to think about how his words will be reported before he says them.
ReplyDeleteI know it's very, very hard to take when you seem to be on the front lines of the culture wars and your General seems to be abdicating to the enemy. I know where my own issues are where I feel I fight on the front lines of the war against evil and brave the anti-Christian anti-Catholic society, and how I would feel if the Pope made comments that weakened support for my position (which he may yet do!)
My issue is caring for elderly parents and the medical community's euthanasia efforts. If the Pope said, 'well, people should be let to die. They should be assisted in dying to make sure their suffering is minimal, to help them on their way to God. Resisting death is a bad idea. If you’ve lived 90 years, it’s old enough!' I would be outraged and so very hurt, because the world is already trying to hasten the death of older people. I already fight this with doctors who don't know my parents, and the only help I have is from the GP who is their primary care physician. If he should retire (and might soon) I am so afraid about what I might face from the newer doctors who don't share our values.
It seems to me this is a time of increased persecution, and we are going to be wounded in the battle. I am so gratified that you mentioned prayer helped. That's a wonderful sign to me, that we need to turn to Christ during this, Who sees this, and understands what it costs us to follow Him. I am praying for all of us faithful ones during this time. Keep the faith. Keep the faith.
God bless. ~ Bonnie (Sorry this is so long!)
Thank you Bonnie! I think that your comment makes so much sense. I do feel like so much of what he says is twisted, and it's so easy to do because he's very different in some ways (like how he speaks) from the two popes who preceded him.
DeletePrayers for you as a caregiver! Over the last few years I've watched my mom in that role and the amount of work is... well the only thing I can think of is more than anything else I've ever seen in my entire life. God Bless!
I think the ultimate problem, and perhaps I am simplifying too much, but I think the primary problem is simply that there is not enough kindness from people today. I don’t think it would sting nearly so bad if people were not already making negative comments at women who have more than 2 kids. For example, he never used the word “rabbits”… someone, many people, chose to use that word and interpret his words in one particular way and it is not a kind reference to use towards anyone. So much name calling and so much bickering and bashing from so many… it is disheartening how unkind people can be unnecessarily.
ReplyDeleteSo true.
Delete